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Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 13:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Two thoughts:
- Lose the ~9% DPS increase that short range ammo got with the projectile buff. The purification of damage type was more then enough.
- Reduce the tracking enhancer falloff bonus from 30% to 15%.
Discuss. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 13:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Too bad. I prefer fun and balanced to the "I win" button. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 14:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zagam wrote:I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!
Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.
This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.
A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Zagam wrote:I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!
Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.
This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension. A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention. From all I've seen, Minmatar ships are just as common as Caldari & Amarr ones, and slightly more common than Gallente. Seriously, any semblance of tactics or use of intelligence can defeat a "Winmatar" just as easily as any Caldari or Amarr ship.
I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 23:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.
There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off. In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.
But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?
And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business.
We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races.
Look at the total package: Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.
This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fastest lock time. Lowest ECM strength. Falcons and Rooks are not as numerous as they used to be. I'm not including faction ships like the Dramiel in the lock time comparison. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
It's more like scorch vs. AC. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
When and if they roll out a new intel system I hope Minmatar gets the short end of the stick there. Big barbarians and strong fighters - light on organization and team. It would put things in perspective at least. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
I was thinking more the discipline of the Roman legions vs. the big, individualist barbarians. But that is a story for another thread. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 01:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were. |
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Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Go lose another Dramiel. You are hardcore addicted to FOTM. And your tears are delicious. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's on page 2 of ships and modules. I'm on my cell phone at work and can't link :). Good to see you again. I did a double take. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 23:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
When the Deimos can approach vagabond speeds with the shortest range weapon system in the game I'll get excited about the hybrid buff. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 01:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit hits the nail on the head and alot more eloquently then I ever could. The skulls, the bones..... He gives it all such a glow. I don't know if it's art- but I like it! |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 21:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
There are two discussions going on here. The first is stubbornly comparing Pulse lasers to AC. When you do the comparison in just that context the argument that AC are a bit much seems tenuous at best.
It's only when you add in the respective hulls that you get the full picture. Minmatar have the ability to control engagement range. They can kite the Gallente or get in the Amarr's face. They can engage or disengage. When you add in the choice in damage selection, the luxurious fitting grid available, the generous drone bays, the utility highs - the argument becomes AC are too close to Pulse lasers considering all the other advantages Minmatar get.
Ruah Piskonit wrote:That is something Mini ships have not lost - they still remain highly versatile in fittings and options. Hybrids and Lasers are both one trick ponies and impose very server load-outs and tactical considerations on the ship/pilot. Eagle is the perfect example of this kind of focused design that symbolizes Amarr and Caldari ship design. So if anyone argues to bring the weapon systems in line also have to propose to completely change the other three races to give them that degree of malleability. If not, then Mini ships and their weapon systems have to be balanced back to being the lowest damaging, highest mobility, lowest tech, highest adaptation race. The jack of all trades class of ships has to trade firepower, tank, and strategic focus for combat options, maneuverability, and a wide range of weapon systems employed. If not, then it will remain imba because it keep all the advantages and loses non of its disadvantages - with the exception of mass battleship fleet fights.
Quoting for truth. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 22:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Onictus wrote: When I trained up Matar from Gallente and fit my frist Hurricane the first throught through me head was "Whoa that was easy"
No cap concerns, no fitting mods, no ridiculous ranges, overall they just work.
I started Matar and tried to go over to Gallente/ Caldari. I started to try to fit their ships and my initial thought was 'WTF?!?' |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: While the future is still pretty hazy, I think we're going to eventually see a Minmatar/projectile nerf. I just want it to be for the right reasons and actually address the heart of the matter.
-Liang
Did you notice they used Grimpak's idea on the Tornado? That's probably their future direction. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Falloff was changed from 10% per level to 5% per level. The Grimpak Idea is to do this to all ships that currently have the falloff bonus as they are the worst offenders. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
96
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 09:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
How much have you had to drink tonight? |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Break it down to the basics:
Amarr should be masters of medium range. Nice optimal. Poorer tracking up close.
Gallente should be masters of point blank combat. We'll see how they fare once the changes hit TQ.
Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.
Now let's suppose for the sake of argument that the Gallente are once again masters of short range. Let's also suppose that they can now more easily close the gap with Amarr. Would people use them? High risk and do or die vs. the Winmatar platform that doesn't have to risk it all every time.
When Minmatar are out of wack the game notices alot more. When ships were going super fast in the nano age - Amarr medium range meant absolutely nothing. When the range of Minmatar ships got drastically increased - almost doubling in some cases - Gallente are completely shut out. In the old days that kiting window was 5km - 10km. You can make a mistake in that window. You can get caught. Not so much when your window is 20km+ |
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Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 00:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
The first MMO I ever played was EQII. I still have a very close friend from college who plays it. While it wasn't for me the one thing I admired about it was the constant balancing that went on with the classes. Tweaks were done weekly if not daily. Players didn't have an extended period of time - much less years - to get acclimated to something unbalanced. It's an area I wish CCP was better in. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 04:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters. How is a Cane supposed to get under a Harb's lasers? Getting that close just turns the fight into a straight up DPS/EHP race, which your typical shield cane loses to a plated Harb.
That's a crappy example as you have 250m+ ships shooting at eachother with weapons that have 125m resolution. Try cruiser to cruiser. The pulses will still hit but it's alot more 'barely scratched'. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 17:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pulses, compared to AC and Blasters, have the worst tracking. Tracking affects how much of your paper DPS you can actually apply. Even if it's only a 10% damage degradation - it is a degradation. That tight envelope is where I can get a majority of my DPS as a Minmatar pilot and where Amarr struggles - just a bit - to get theirs. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
99
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 21:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Pulses, compared to AC and Blasters, have the worst tracking. Tracking affects how much of your paper DPS you can actually apply. Even if it's only a 10% damage degradation - it is a degradation. That tight envelope is where I can get a majority of my DPS as a Minmatar pilot and where Amarr struggles - just a bit - to get theirs. A couple of comments: - Lets be real about this Zarnak - tracking is not the metric that is most interesting. In a great many ways, the interesting metric is whether or not you hit effectively. Pulse lasers have a much better hit profile than hybrids ever have. - Medium hybrids, medium projectiles, and even medium pulse simply do not have tracking issues to speak of. The real problem with medium sized weapons (as you should actually know) is getting into range in the first place. If you're talking about medium sized ships and talking about how someone is getting under the tracking of someone else you're just living in a fantasy land. -Liang
If I see an Amarr ship and I want to engage as Minmatar I'm going to get as close as I can for several reasons: 1) It's where my damage is best. 2) I'm just about guaranteed to have a nuet fitted. The Amarr ship may or may not. 3) Tracking as a tertiary reason. If the Amarr ship doesn't have a TE fit, if the pilot panicked and didn't switch to MF (Huge damage reduction at close range!)- there is a difference. It adds up. I'm going to squeeze every bit of advantage I can out of the conflict. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 03:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Songbird wrote:Can the "nerf minmatar" people state 1 more time for the record the exact nature of the nerfs they're fighting for?
Is it "nerf AC's since minmatar are shield tanked"? Or is it nerf the speed of minmatar ships since they're shield tanked? Is it nerf shield tanking since it has no penalties to speed?
What exactly is it that you're fighting for?
After 21 pages?
Cut the falloff bonus on tracking enhancers to match the optimal bonus.
OR
Cut the falloff bonus on ships that have them from 10% to 5%.
The blaster damage and tracking buff on sissi is probably sufficient for me to give up on the 9% DPS bit in the OP. I don't feel like running up to a blaster frigate at point blank range in a claw or wolf and slapping a nuet on it is a smart strategy. And yes, it really was that bad. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 04:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Songbird wrote: So cut off the 30% bonus in half, " cause 15% more falloff is exactly the same as 15% more optimal" (this btw will nerf blasters too you realize) OR nerf ...what? Wolf, vaga, tornado, sleipnir, and loki? It's those 5 minmatar (mostly t2 and t3 )ships that destroy all of eve?
Interesting - and on the last page all I was reading was how cane could disengage at will.
I think all your pro nerf people should get together, order a few beers and come to an understanding what is it exactly the thing about minmatar ships that you hate the most.
Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can. And it really comes down to a few culpable ships. You forgot to mention the dramiel, cynabal, and Machariel. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 06:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
ElCholo wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can. And it really comes down to a few culpable ships. You forgot to mention the dramiel, cynabal, and Machariel. I don't think that he forgot to mention them. I think it's more along the lines that they aren't "Minmatar" ships. They are Angel faction ships that have insane falloff bonuses along with amazing speed and agility. You don't nerf an entire weapon system because of unbalanced ships. :P CCP knows this which is why the Dramiel is already getting nerfed this Winter. Yes, yes, the nerfmatar whiners will still say "But they use ACs!". This still doesn't make AC's OP'd, nor does it make them Minmatar ships, no matter how they will try to spin in to support their side that Minmatar is OP. Zarnak Wulf wrote: Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can.
My issue with this train of thought is that if you make a race that is supposed to be able to disengage at will, then why take away the weapon system that allows them to use that? At the point to which you take away this weapon system, they can no longer fight in the ranges that allow them to disengage and are thus no longer used. They can keep range and do no damage, or get in range of their "then nerfed" guns and be outclassed by every other ship. IMHO that is bad logic.
What you say makes sense. But let me pose this to you. Before the projectile buff the vagabond, the sleipner, and the angel cruiser I'll leave out - had 23km of falloff. Now they have over 40km. Where do you draw the line? |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
103
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 01:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
Desudes wrote:
Then how do you explain class forums being clusterfucks? And I dunno about you but I sure as hell see a lot of racial division in the EVE community. These forums can get a lot meaner then anything I've seen, especially when it spills over to in-game, nothing you can do in any MMO matches the grief that can be caused in-game in EVE.
Liang hurt my feelings. I had to cry myself to sleep. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
103
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 01:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: However, sometime after Monaclegate some small segment of the community has taken it upon itself to demand that projectiles and Minmatar ships be nerfed into total oblivion by reversing the entire projectile boost -- and more. Of course we have the usual troll suspects like Naomi and more recently Zarnak (the OP)... but there's a bit more to this one as well.
This thread didn't reach page 24 because of a couple of troll suspects. There is a significant dissatisfation with balance in the game. That disatisfaction is there despite CCP's current overtures. As an example if I'm looking at the Naga as a Caldari pilot I have to wonder why I have the slowest tier three BC, with significant fitting issues and the largest signature radius. This is a new ship! Do they get it? Do they get it at all?!? Has anyone at CCP sat down and tried to fit a rail boat before? Where do they get their fitting numbers from? It's maddening. And you look over at the Tornado pilot who has to decide how many LSE II to fit on his ship when you had to struggle just to fit one named. To repeat - these are new ships; a chance for CCP to step away from past frustrations.
I understand the point that you have tried to make repeatedly. Hybrids are bad vs. everything. I agree. But I also think that it's easier to balance Gallente vs. Amarr then Gallente vs. Minmatar. Tweak the fittings so I can fit a propulsion mod rather then a fitting mod. Slightly increase speed and agility. Maybe we're already at the spot where blaster boats can quickly catch laser ships. We'll see. As it is right now they're not balanced vs. Minmatar ships that have twice the range and twice the speed. If Gallente/ Caldari are balanced vs. Minmatar there's a better chance they'll be balanced vs. Amarr.
Lastly, when you take a look at how long things are allowed to be unbalanced in the game it's hard to make the argument for patience. Electronic attack frigates have been broken since November of 2008. That's three years. Assault frigates were almost fixed. 18 months ago. Hell - hybrids were pretty much broken in November of 2008 too. It is my belief that the squeeky wheel gets the oil. I'm putting pressure on the situation not only from the 'buff hybrid' viewpoint but also the 'need an alternative to Minmatar' viewpoint. Let CCP know what standard we're holding them to!
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Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 02:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
You have more faith in CCP then I do. |
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Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 19:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Tallest just updated the hybrid rebalance thread. After Crucible they will be pursuing further balancing that might include: Looking at scorch vs. Null vs. Barrage T1 ammo revision for hybrids and possibly lasers Something to get blaster boats in range. Armor vs. Shield and passive vs. Active tanking Light and medium webber drones Individual ship balancing.
And that all makes this thread moot now. I would appreciate it being locked. Thank you. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 20:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
PAAX wrote:BALANCE COMING IN NEXT YEARS EXPANSION PACK ARMAGEDDON
AMARR +1 HOLY HAND GRENADE
GALLENTE +1 HOMING PIDGEON
MINMATAR +1 BANNANA BOMB
CALDARI +1 SHEEP LAUNCHER
Let the thread die. Moron. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
119
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Zagam wrote:Actually, I mis-stated the OP's age... he was created 2007.04.21. As for him being older, I was created 2006.02.01.
Also, the intent of my post was not to get into an e-peen contest, but rather call the OP out for trolling (I'll have to upgrade their troll score to 4/10, for the sheer number of posts and real discussion).
I'm still waiting for Zagam to upgrade my troll score. This was from page three. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 16:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:
You really don't get it do you? It's clearly shows NOT what ships are "good" it shows exactly the evidence people have been ranting and raving about for weeks before Crucible. Which is, that it has come down to nothing more than a giant kite fest in combat.
The Hurricane and Drake are so one dimensional and such a bore to fly..... The "community" (derp) isn't EVERYONE . instead it becomes well what is most popular? Or well **** I can't fly the ship I want to fly because my FC wants us in "this" ship I've flown so many times it hurts...
There is no skill involved! Gone are the days when you gawked at the inventiveness and the finesse of a few good pilots using Minny the way they were MEANT to be flown. Not this fotm "community" excuse bullshit you see today.
It shouldn't be where the low skilled and to put it flatly, mediocre hop in a ship especially a Minny ship and get the results they do today. If you were to hop in a Minny ship like half the pilots do back in 2005, you'd be the laughing stalk of Eve.
Now it's not only accepted, but encouraged to exploit the imbalance, the EZ mode that is now Minny simply because it's what popular? People rant and rave above how good the Tempest or the Hurricane is. Yet why don't we see people flying Typhoon's?
Probably because the Phoon is the LAST Minny ship that still embodies exactly what Minmatar should and always have been! A very specialized, specific class of ships that can be the swiss army knife of Eve, and yet be the most rewarding and difficult to fly...
+1. So much this. |
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